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Was that just a weird plot loop for the sake of a plot loop or was the Castiel-Jimmy plot just 40 minutes of screen filler because Kripke and Co. didn't want Sam sucking demon blood and walking around looking like he'd gorged himself at a carne cruda buffet for the entire episode?
I don't know, guys. Having an ENTIRE episode where Castiel disappears, get a God spanking, and ends up back in his vessel with a change of heart just seemed really weird at the point in the season. That whole plot point could've been dealt with as a subplot and taken maybe 5 minutes of screen time: Cas is MIA and the boys need him, Sam and Dean give this thought and furrow their brows while furthering the main plot and somehow getting themselves out of a demon pickle without the help of their resident angel, then Cas shows up at the end and we have our reveal. Ta da. *jazz hands* But instead we were treated to an eyeful of Castiel (which is fine) and a dead end backstory and family and bit and pieces of what I consider to be a much more interesting and compelling story (Sam and Dean's) shoved into the corners. I'm confused as to why Kripke and Carver assumed we'd care about how and why Castiel came to be in his vessel in lieu of Sam and Dean's current story, especially when the brother's situation had so much potential for some juicy storytelling and some serious characterization. OK, maybe the whole "it's in your blood" thing is going to be an angelic counterpoint to demon blood sharing and power transferral as well as catapult us into a Castiel-centric subplot for S5, but, IMHO, this is not the time to spend an entire episode on Castiel's vessel. This is the end of the season! We should be ramping up for the finale where questions need to be answered and plots tied up. The momentum should be building, not stagnating.
So Sam is just an addict. And it seems from "TMatEotB" that he's doing "it" because he wants revenge. I get that; it makes sense. Rash, vengeful Sam isn't something new. We saw snippets/hints of this way back in "Salvation" when Dean had to physically restrain Sam, keeping him from running back into Rosie's nursery to confront the YED. So more than anything, what we're seeing now (the reversal) is an amplification of formerly repressed parts of Sam's personality that's crowding out other facets of himself he no longer has the luxury to afford (S1-bleeding-heart Sam), a internal characterization "flip" so to speak. But isn't there more? I'm having a hard time believing that Sam, who has been a walking complex contradiction since day one, would have ONLY ONE reason to kill LIlith and resort to such desperate and extreme measures as drinking demon blood. What happened to the Sam in "CAiaD" who seemed to want a happy ending for him and Dean, for them to have a chance to grow old with the war over and Lilith gone? What happened to S2 Sam and "I'm gonna save you, Dean" (has it been discussed if Dean's soul would go back to Hell if/when he dies for good?). I understand that since "MM" (S3) Sam has decided that he needs to "become Dean" but I'm finding it hard to believe that Sam could just wholesale adopt this black and white/good and evil view and simultaneously reject 20-odd years of his own thinking. Questioning things, seeing the intricacies of the situation, empathizing, challenging the staus quo, pushing against seemingly iron clad rule of the establishment, that's WHO SAM IS. That's what always distinguished him from John and Dean. So now having this Sam who gives ultimatiums and seems to have lost his ability to see the grey alternatives has me scratching my head. It's not that I think his character can't or shouldn't change or that he shouldn't become more like Dean, it's just the extent of his character reversal seems unnecessarily extreme. Can't we get a tempered version of new and old Sam? :(
And I probably should just stop this post here, but since my wheels of confusion are already in motion...
I can't remember the last time I actually cringed (in a bad way) and covered my eyes during SPN. I've been cheerleading for brother vs. brother and darkish!Sam since S2, and I don't have a problem with the demon blood sharing or scenes of Sam sucking on Ruby's arm, but Sam and his bloody face was just too much for me. I could only think "vampire" and then "Sam's the monster that Gordon was so hell bent on killing". It just felt ... not right to me for reasons I can't express. But maybe the whole point behind being so graphic was to make the audience feel uncomfortable? I don't know. It's a fine line between showing character evolution and accidentally committing character assassination.
Perhaps all of this really stems from the fact I really want to know what's going on in Sam's head once and for all. And this entire episode devoted to a minor character and his seemingly inconsequential backstory (minus the "it's in your blood thing") slightly frustrates me when we could've been getting stories that would've allow us to see what's going on with Sam and his addiction. Then maybe we (I) would better understand why he's saying and doing what he's saying and doing so we're (I'm) not left wearing my bhuz face.
Huh. So it seems like I only write episode reaction posts that are disapproving now. Just to set the record straight I've been loving the last episodes. I thought "Head of a Pin", "The Monster at the End...", and "Jump the Shark" were terrific. I hope the last episodes of the season echo those instead of whatever it was I watched tonight.
I don't know, guys. Having an ENTIRE episode where Castiel disappears, get a God spanking, and ends up back in his vessel with a change of heart just seemed really weird at the point in the season. That whole plot point could've been dealt with as a subplot and taken maybe 5 minutes of screen time: Cas is MIA and the boys need him, Sam and Dean give this thought and furrow their brows while furthering the main plot and somehow getting themselves out of a demon pickle without the help of their resident angel, then Cas shows up at the end and we have our reveal. Ta da. *jazz hands* But instead we were treated to an eyeful of Castiel (which is fine) and a dead end backstory and family and bit and pieces of what I consider to be a much more interesting and compelling story (Sam and Dean's) shoved into the corners. I'm confused as to why Kripke and Carver assumed we'd care about how and why Castiel came to be in his vessel in lieu of Sam and Dean's current story, especially when the brother's situation had so much potential for some juicy storytelling and some serious characterization. OK, maybe the whole "it's in your blood" thing is going to be an angelic counterpoint to demon blood sharing and power transferral as well as catapult us into a Castiel-centric subplot for S5, but, IMHO, this is not the time to spend an entire episode on Castiel's vessel. This is the end of the season! We should be ramping up for the finale where questions need to be answered and plots tied up. The momentum should be building, not stagnating.
So Sam is just an addict. And it seems from "TMatEotB" that he's doing "it" because he wants revenge. I get that; it makes sense. Rash, vengeful Sam isn't something new. We saw snippets/hints of this way back in "Salvation" when Dean had to physically restrain Sam, keeping him from running back into Rosie's nursery to confront the YED. So more than anything, what we're seeing now (the reversal) is an amplification of formerly repressed parts of Sam's personality that's crowding out other facets of himself he no longer has the luxury to afford (S1-bleeding-heart Sam), a internal characterization "flip" so to speak. But isn't there more? I'm having a hard time believing that Sam, who has been a walking complex contradiction since day one, would have ONLY ONE reason to kill LIlith and resort to such desperate and extreme measures as drinking demon blood. What happened to the Sam in "CAiaD" who seemed to want a happy ending for him and Dean, for them to have a chance to grow old with the war over and Lilith gone? What happened to S2 Sam and "I'm gonna save you, Dean" (has it been discussed if Dean's soul would go back to Hell if/when he dies for good?). I understand that since "MM" (S3) Sam has decided that he needs to "become Dean" but I'm finding it hard to believe that Sam could just wholesale adopt this black and white/good and evil view and simultaneously reject 20-odd years of his own thinking. Questioning things, seeing the intricacies of the situation, empathizing, challenging the staus quo, pushing against seemingly iron clad rule of the establishment, that's WHO SAM IS. That's what always distinguished him from John and Dean. So now having this Sam who gives ultimatiums and seems to have lost his ability to see the grey alternatives has me scratching my head. It's not that I think his character can't or shouldn't change or that he shouldn't become more like Dean, it's just the extent of his character reversal seems unnecessarily extreme. Can't we get a tempered version of new and old Sam? :(
And I probably should just stop this post here, but since my wheels of confusion are already in motion...
I can't remember the last time I actually cringed (in a bad way) and covered my eyes during SPN. I've been cheerleading for brother vs. brother and darkish!Sam since S2, and I don't have a problem with the demon blood sharing or scenes of Sam sucking on Ruby's arm, but Sam and his bloody face was just too much for me. I could only think "vampire" and then "Sam's the monster that Gordon was so hell bent on killing". It just felt ... not right to me for reasons I can't express. But maybe the whole point behind being so graphic was to make the audience feel uncomfortable? I don't know. It's a fine line between showing character evolution and accidentally committing character assassination.
Perhaps all of this really stems from the fact I really want to know what's going on in Sam's head once and for all. And this entire episode devoted to a minor character and his seemingly inconsequential backstory (minus the "it's in your blood thing") slightly frustrates me when we could've been getting stories that would've allow us to see what's going on with Sam and his addiction. Then maybe we (I) would better understand why he's saying and doing what he's saying and doing so we're (I'm) not left wearing my bhuz face.
Huh. So it seems like I only write episode reaction posts that are disapproving now. Just to set the record straight I've been loving the last episodes. I thought "Head of a Pin", "The Monster at the End...", and "Jump the Shark" were terrific. I hope the last episodes of the season echo those instead of whatever it was I watched tonight.
discontent
It all felt a bit like the writers indulging themselves, because Misha Collins has proved so popular and they perhaps wanted to 'reward' that by placing him in the spotlight and giving him some backstory. Trouble is, his vessel's backstory is largely irrelevant! So, yeah. There were bits I liked about the episode, but for the most part it felt bitty and unbalanced. Disappointing for this point of the season.
This thought crossed my mind, but I didn't want to sound like a MC hater. ;) I suspect you might be right, which makes me a little sad being that we have so many other supporting characters that are equally (if not more, IMHO) fascinating who have put in their time and been lingering at the edges of the story for years. I'd love to see an episode from Bobby's POV and how an older hunter who knows generations of Winchesters view the boys (how singular are Sam and Dean really?) or even get a real glimpse of what makes Ruby tick, which I think would be useful for the A story. I can't help but feel that MC as wonderful as he is just lucked out and got jumped to the front of the queue instead of Jimmy's story really being relevant. And always IMHO and perfect world the storytelling should come first.
Trouble is, his vessel's backstory is largely irrelevant!
Totally. With the exception of the "it's in your blood" lines, I still fail to see what the point of introducing Jimmy and his family was. And I really think the blood thing could've been revealed just as effectively (Castiel experiencing his vessel's flashbacks or just reducing Jimmy's story to the REAL B plot of the episode) without spending an entire episode centered on characters we'll never see again.
it felt bitty and unbalanced
Yes, exactly. After I spewed out this post, I found the right words to describe this episode: "unbalanced" and "focused left of center". It's nice to hear that I wasn't the only one who thought this. :)
It was as if we got lost and accidentally followed the wrong camera ... like we were shown the cut of the episode from the second filming crew (filming the B storyline, Jimmy) instead of the first. The story itself wasn't a problem, but it felt like it was improperly weighted and emphasis was put on events/characters who we didn't have an interest in (Jimmy and his family), making it feel like all the important stuff (Sam and Dean) was happening beyond our camera's view, which was frustrating ... a tease almost.
AMEN! The whole of the 2nd half of the season they danced around the topic of Sam's activities with Ruby, i.e. drinking her blood, and how terrified he is about Dean finding out and to then just squeeze the whole reveal and Dean's reaction to it at the end of an episode that is nothing, but a vehicle for a recurring character, is anti-climactic, to say the least. I don't know what to make of that. :( The worst part is that Castiel's backstory is really of no consequence for the story and to waste a whole episode on it, especially so shortly before the finale, is just completely frustrating and annoying to me.
Not only is that a disservice to all the work that went into building the story, it leaves the audience feeling cheated and dissatisfied because the implicit promise that was originally established by the storyteller(s) was broken. We've been repeatedly shown over the last 4 years this is Sam and Dean's story and that is who we've been taught to invest in. Therefore, we are right to assume that big pay off plot points will center on them, not minor characters. And when emotional mileposts that we've been trained to keep an eye on all season are suddenly yanked out of view, it should be no surprise that we're confused. This is all basic Fiction Writing 101; I'm surprised and disappointed that Carver and Krikpe forgot about this in this episode.
I can see some parallels between Jimmy and Dean (heh, Jimmy Dean ... that's a sausage company XD) which could've been more interesting to me if I didn't feel so cheated out of Sam and Dean's story this episode. I think my dissatisfaction over that pretty much colors the rest of the episode for me, and it's hard for me to feel anything but annoyance with Jimmy and his family.
I think if we were even treated to this same story filtered through Castiel I wouldn't likely feel so disgruntled because at least Castiel is a familiar character, one that we've got some sort of attachment to and one who has a relationship with the Winchesters. Plus, we could've learned something new about a character we know will show up in the story again, one that's an integral part of the plot, making the A story of this episode feel less like a dead end plot loop and spending the time to introduce Amelia and Clair (and maybe Jimmy) wasn't a waste of time.
I think it's clearly meant to be part 1 of a 3 part story arc to finish out the season, which is why I think it doesn't feel 'complete'.
For me, it's not about feeling incomplete. In fact, I feel more than anything the story of Amelia and Claire is complete (there are some niggling questions about Jimmy and the "its in your blood" lines, but, for me, they're not pressing yet ... however, there could be some interesting potential regarding the Novak backstory and ways I could see it intertwining with the history of the family Winchester). But, for me, this episode's misstep was because it was focused on the storyline I was less interested in and the fact the reveals in the B-story (Sam and Dean) were huge and what the story had been building to all season. So to have our attention forced onto characters that I didn't know and, therefore, couldn't be expected to care about while Sam and Dean's emotional story was unfolding largely off screen was frustrating.
So while I definitely agree with you about this being a building block for the last 2 episodes, I'm not sure anything that could happen in 4x21/4x22 will change my feelings about how this episode was told. For me, it wasn't the plot points that rang weirdy for me, it was the choice of perspective and the weighting of the story ... how the plot was executed could've serviced the mytharc better.
Edited at 2009-05-02 11:47 pm (UTC)
The nasty side of me would theorize that the whole Castiel thing was just to indulge the fans because FANS LOVE HOT MISHA COLLINS ANGEL!! and make Dean/Castiel the new Sam/Ruby but eh. The nice side would just think that Jared and Jensen were happy that they got to sleep more. Maybe.
As for the demon blood thing, at this point I just don't care. They kind of started at Point B, skidded around Point C, and will probably end up at Point D via a shortcut. I am hoping that next week's won't disappoint. Sera Gamble said "be careful what you wish for" in relation to Sam's head so who knows...
The nasty side of me would theorize that the whole Castiel thing was just to indulge the fans
I wish I could say that thought didn't cross my mind. It did feel a little self-indulgent. I don't mind fan service when it's played for laughs ("TMatEoTB") or doesn't detract from the story, but when it feels like it's taking over the story for the sake of taking over the story then I think it's probably best to put it where it belongs (in the fandom box).
Sera Gamble said "be careful what you wish for" in relation to Sam's head so who knows...
Generally, I'm OK with Gamble's episodes. Sometimes her plots are a little convoluted, but I think she's got her fingers on Sam's pulse more than any other writer in that writer's room (dare I say even Kripke, who seems to know Dean). She also seems to be very plugged into fandom's wants, so when she says stuff I tend to take it square on (unlike Kripke who likes to tease fandom and sometimes gets a kick of out being all tongue-in-cheek). That being said, I'm just looking forward to finally getting into Sam's head regardless of what's in there. I figure I can spaz over that later. ;)
About the episode feeling like filler - remember how they said that they really expected this to be the last season? And that when the ratings came in so unexpectedly strong, they started rearranging things so they'd have story for a fifth year?
So, maybe not filler so much as stretcher. Yes, they ought to be barreling towards the finale, but they decided they needed to leave something for next year so they did some things to suspend the plot from wrapping up. I can imagine someone saying, hey, lets do Castiel backstory, that will take up an episode...
Good idea or not, that's really what I think this was all about.
The second point, about how far Sam has fallen... yeah, I hate it. Yeah, I keep hoping there is going to be something more to what Sam is doing, to what Sam is, but while I cling to hope, there's something I want to point out.
As icky as it was to see him suck blood during the fight, and as obvious that point was (that he can't control himself any more), there is a little detail that keeps getting lost in all the horror about what Sam is doing/what is happening to him.
Everytime he doses up, he does something good, that no one else could have done in the moment.
When he killed Alistair, he saved both Dean and Castiel, or Castiel's vessel, when Alistair was beating the crap out of both of them.
This time, he saved Jimmy's wife.
It's kind of easy to get stuck on the way he killed the demon he'd drank from with extreme prejudice, thereby killing that person, but Dean had already killed her husband. Doesn't make it good, but both of them have been killing people every time they use the knife, and they both use it without hesitation now. Yes, a bad thing, but in this context Sam is not worse than his brother, or even Bobby.
But he saved Jimmy's wife. He pulled the demon out of her, and she survived.
Jimmy, in the end, sacrificed his own life to save his daughter from being an angel's vessel. But she would have been an orphan if Sam hadn't done what he did.
These kinds of facts often get discounted or overlooked. However, in the end, no matter how bad it looks, Sam always does something good.
Yes, he killed Alistair "with his mind", but by that point the vessel was dead or would be, after Dean had plunged a knife into him.
It can, and I'm sure will be argued that the good that came out of these acts was not significant, or was offset by the means used to achieve them, or even, by some, that Sam didn't really intend the good that resulted, it was incidental to his drive for revenge, but I don't buy that. Actions speak.
So I still have hope for our Sammy.
And I think this episode had something to say, a lesson to be learned, about what is to come.
That lesson is, being aligned with the angels my put you on God's side, but it still creates as much human loss and tragedy as not being. And Dean is about to do, essentially, the equivalent of what Jimmy did, and lived to regret.
No, all the bets aren't in yet.
I really did not care about Jimmy at all and thought the only interesting thing about him was that he seemed to be a smart dresser, which, incidentally, does not make him a desirable character in my book.
I hated his wife. The kid was sweet, but she reminded me of Lillith!girl.
Nope, totally didn't feel it. Even Bobby annoyed me. Why do the best characters on the show get shoved in the background and given minimal amounts of screen time when what they're engaging in could potentially be so much more? Grr.
And locking Sam in the salt chamber? Hohum. Whatever. Demonic cold turkey time, I suppose. So when he's puked his insides out, he'll magically reappear as a beautiful butterfly!Sammy with no lingering bad effects. Yeah right. Grr.
How about rather "to start something for next year"? :) I agree and think part of the "it's in your blood" lines are meant to be the seeds for a Castiel-centric subplot/backstory for S5. To be fair, I think it could be really interesting and am curious as to where it will lead.
So, maybe not filler so much as stretcher.
You know, I don't take issue with the plot of this episode. If you lay it all down on paper it's sound:
1. Castiel gets sent back to Heaven and is forced to have a change of heart. This automatically gives Heaven more playing power being that Cas is now the only angel that Dean will half listen to (Anna counts, but she's not on the side of Heaven). I think this pressurizes the situation and polarizes it to be more like Heaven vs. Hell instead of the Winchesters against Heaven and Hell.
2. Heaven doesn't want Castiel being sympathetic to the Winchester plight. This villifies Heaven slightly, showing its ruthless side and plays on the "shades of grey" theme that began with Gordon in S2.
3. We learn that Jimmy (and Claire) may have been predispositioned for their roles as Cas's vessel. This plants the seeds of a mysterious backstory that plays on the theme of destiny vs. choice and could potentially parallel Sam and Dean's journey.
4. We see the extent of Sam's addiction. Positioning for the finale.
5. Dean learns where Sam's powers come from and he and Bobby lock Sam in detox. Positioning for the finale.
The plot of this episode seems, in conception, to be awesome: it plays on Show themes, forwards the mytharc, introduces new characters/gives us information on a character's backstory, and leaves some new mysteries in its wake. So I don't think this episode was necessarily filler in terms of forwarding the story (plot). I do, however, think it was a wasted opportunity because of the way it was told (plot execution).
Everytime he doses up, he does something good, that no one else could have done in the moment.
*nods* And that's one of the saving graces that's keeping Sam's character from falling into the dumpster! :D I think his intentions ultimately come from a good place (save Dean from going to Hell again, peace from Lilith, a life after hunting even?). I'd just like solid confirmation in canon that this is the case ... I want to see or hear from Sam the reasons why he's doing what he's doing, how they all somehow got twisted and displaced into this need for REVENGE. My hope for Sam and belief that he's not evil is what keeps me watching and waiting. Because, face it, one dimensional characters are boring. Zzzz. ;)
being aligned with the angels my put you on God's side, but it still creates as much human loss and tragedy as not being.
And THAT could be the premise of a whole separate meta! \o/ *gently nudges you* :D
I look forward to seeing the fall out of Dean's decision. I think we're about to get some more heavy hitting show symmetry, which is always awesome!
I agree with pretty much all you've said, especially the blood on the chin! First look yeah, but gee, Sam wiped one little spot after he shot What'sHisName when the Gate was opened, and yet he didn't attempt to clean his chin when he eye-balled Dean - huh? I though vampire too, and it should have read exposed addict - after all he was sneaking around outside to get his last drop of Ruby's blood. I couldn't believe he was going to suck up the blood in front of Dean, wow-truly addicted!
I actually had a couple of horror/ pull back from screen moments too; so on a horror level I guess it worked, but I too prefer a little more main story arc. OH, and what was Dean's comment to Anna? Didn't catch it, but was it a "sexy" comment meant to link them as a couple/ lovers/ or what? That made me squirm too; surely I'm wrong on this.
Wow, how to write way too much in your journal, sorry. ;)
I'm all for show runners caring about what its fans think, but when it start directly dictating the story, then it could get really sloppy. :(
what was Dean's comment to Anna?
He said, "You look terrific." Oh, Dean, always thinking with your downstairs brain. ;) It sort of kills me every time Dean just blurt things out like he has NO FILTER between his brain and his mouth. XD Even though I thought the Anna/Dean scenes in "HaH" were painful and their dialogue was badly written, I don't mind Anna. I find a rogue angel rebelling against Heaven kind of interesting, and her flitting in and out of the story presumably having adventure and agendas of her own leaves room for cool stuff. I don't really see a place in the plot for a long-standing Dean/Anna romance; I think it has the potential to feel contrived and therefore be rejected almost wholesale by fandom. Let's hope their "relationship" maintains this level of Dean making inappropriate remarks and Anna telling him off because that, to me, is entertaining.
how to write way too much in your journal, sorry. ;)
You didn't write too much, at least IMHO. Believe me, you're looking at the queen of journal pollution. :D
And here I was thinking they were making a really explicit callback to Jack in Metamorphosis.
in lieu of Sam and Dean's current story, especially when the brother's situation had so much potential for some juicy storytelling and some serious characterization
My guess is? They're saving that for next season and Castiel is about the only distractingly shiny object they had in their arsenal.
I hope the last episodes of the season echo those instead of whatever it was I watched tonight.
I suspect there's still some big punches in store. However, aside from the fact that I have had a bunch of things to deal with this morning, I wasn't rushing to write my meta on the ep, either.
Then again, I'm just kind of tired, so, let's see what I come up with. :>
Heh! It was Jack's chowing down on that ground beef straight out of the refrigerator that make me think of the raw beef buffet analogy! I don't doubt that may have been the intention. It worked well because I was just as horrified and disgusted as I was with the blood dripping scenes in "Metamorphosis".
They're saving that for next season...
My comment about "Sam and Dean characterization" had more to do with me bemoaning the fact I wanted to get into their heads about the current situation (Sam's addiction and Dean's reaction to finally understanding what's been going on with his brother) rather than just a general lack of brother screen time in the episode. I think overall we do get a lot of Sam and Dean directed stories (as we should because it's their story), but it was just this particular episode where the reveals were so relevant to the story that I felt we deserved to see them more than we did instead of Jimmy and his family.
...and Castiel is about the only distractingly shiny object they had in their arsenal.
Yes, Castiel is shiny and new. But I still watch because of the tried and true and old comfortableness of Sam and Dean (and I'm sure not unique in this respect). If there's nothing substantial under it all, shiny only goes so far...
I have had a bunch of things to deal with this morning ... let's see what I come up with
Your academic situation I won't dare mention *grin* does have a way of eating up time and energy and brain space. It'll all get done in some manner, someway in the end. I noticed you posted a meta. Once I get my thoughts more organized I will check it out.
I didn't really get any vampire vibes from Sam but a strong flashback to 4x04. And I agree, I would've loved to get a glimpse at Sam's thoughts, but this way we're not entirely sure what instinct is pulling at Sam the strongest and it keeps us guessing what his motivation is (getting back at Lilith, protecting Dean, falling under the spell of demon blood...) and that's quite effective if it's utilized in the finale.
I'll also admit that before the episode, I was maybe waiting to see more action than tension, but on some odd level, this worked; after seeing the ep, I was satisfied. Not to mention that this served as a good reminder that angels are basically douches even though we like Castiel a lot. Maybe we need to remember that come the finale... *bites nails again* Oh, and then there's the fact that this ep reminds me a lot of 1x20 in the way of how it is tied to the mytharc. This wasn't very mytharc-heavy as wasn't 1x20 but this has probably something that's integral to the last two episodes of the season (like 1x20 had the Colt and John).
Yes, that out of everything else seems to be the major Jimmy-Castiel reveal that probably is important later on. So at least we got that. I hope something really cool comes out of this. :)
the timing when Castiel appeared to Jimmy who lived in Pontiac where Dean was buried was very interesting ... Castiel was there looking for a vessel possibly right after Sam buried Dean there.
The timing details totally slipped my mind. I think I was distracted with other things, like the fact Amelia had perfect tear tracks down her face in practically every scene (why I notices these things is beyond me *snork*). But llywela also had some interesting observations about the timing of Castiel's Earth landing and Dean's death that you may be interested in at the bottom of this thread: http://bowtrunckle.livejournal.com/5896
EPIC destinies
\o/ Yes, Jimmy could also have a role in the epic destiny thingy!
this served as a good reminder that angels are basically douches
So true. So true. They are DICKS! Even Castiel. Also, it's a reminder just how ruthless Heaven is and that angels are soldiers at the beck and call of the commander, they're weapons and tools to be manipulated for some mysterious end game just like (it seems) everyone else. I wonder if God and Lucifer aren't two sides of the same coin? In fact, wouldn't it be sort of a mind blow if Lucifer was made out to be more of a sympathetic entity than God?! *blink*
this ep reminds me a lot of 1x20 in the way of how it is tied to the mytharc. This wasn't very mytharc-heavy as wasn't 1x20 but this has probably something that's integral to the last two episodes of the season
This episode's plot (not its execution) was solid, and from the points that were addressed, it's clear that it's an important step in positioning all the characters for the finale. Like 1x20, it does build toward something and without it likely 4x21/4x22 wouldn't be possible. But that being said, I still find a distinction between THE PLOT of an episode and HOW THE EPISODE IS TOLD. It's the latter that is the focus of my frowny face. But you can't win them all and it's a good thing Show doesn't do everything I want because then it would all be manpain and uber-angst and totally over-the-top drama all the time. Heh, too much of a good thing... ;)
Edited at 2009-05-03 06:52 pm (UTC)
It's been a while since SPN has bored me. And at this point in the season bordeom should not be rearing it's bloody-mouthed head.
:(
On another tack: How are you? :)
And I was watching the clock almost as much as I was watching the TV.
How are you?
I am GOOD! Thanks for asking! I'm back at my pre-pregancy weight and can eat anything I want, including spicy foods again (last night I had corn on the cobb with butter, salt, black AND cayenne pepper ... Mmmm). \o/ I now have a huge appreciation for food of any kind. I've been meaning to post pictures from LA and put up ultrasound pictures, but somehow it gets shoved to the bottom of the list. Hopefully later this week sometime. :) I hope you're doing well, too!
I'm gonna go with the latter.
I'm having a hard time believing that Sam, who has been a walking complex contradiction since day one, would have ONLY ONE reason to kill LIlith and resort to such desperate and extreme measures as drinking demon blood.
Exactly. That's one of my big problems with the show now. I've stopped watching for several reasons, but a major one is how OOC they are, most especially Sam.
That angelic "in the blood" thing is total BS. They're just throwing shit in now.
Heh. I've been thinking lately that Sam is actually more Gordon than John. Vamp!Gordon, even. John still cared. Sam...he doesn't seem to. The real Sam would never have gotten to the crackhead stage he's in now.
my resolution: After I take my finals, there will be less bitching and more writing!
It's a good thing Dean wasn't with him because Dean would've eating the entire buffet. ;)
I've stopped watching for several reasons, but a major one is how OOC they are, most especially Sam.
I'd just like to get a good hard look at what's going on in Sam's head soon so I can understand better what he's doing. It does seem a little out of character for him to be ONLY doing this for revenge, but the optimist in me is hoping that it's more than that and we just haven't been privy to his most private thoughts and motivations yet. But I'm teetering on the Sam believability bubble.
I've been thinking lately that Sam is actually more Gordon than John.
He's certainly singular in his thinking like Gordon. "JtS" did wonders for my opinion of John. It opened up a whole new side of him that humanized him for me, made him so much more interesting and complex, someone beyond just the Winchester Drill Sergent and Man Bent on Revenge. "JiS" showed me that at the core of John's actions was fear (fear for his children, of the things in the dark, fear of not being in control). I think the core of Sam's actions is also fear. So in some ways I can still see the Sam-John connection, but Sam does seem to have that more desperate, savage, spare-no-expense drive that we saw with Gordon. Ironic.
there will be less bitching and more writing
Fic is always good to rewrite the story to you own satisfaction. Catharsis = good.
I hear you about a happy ending. I want that, too. Well, I want the boys to choose to be brothers again no matter how it all goes down (if they drive off onto the highway in the Impala or if they go down guns blazing) ... that, to me, is a happy ending. Of course, Bobby living to tell the story of the Winchesters is a must. That old Coot shouldn't die, not after all the living he's done. Maybe I'll have feeling about Jimmy later on. Right now I don't care either way about him (and I don't get the impression that angels or God care either ... how depressing).
JK Rowling let Harry, Hermione and Ron live
I'm glad for that. However, I think Kripke is a little more sadistic than JKR *devil horns* and SPN isn't exactly a middle grade book. And, yeah, there's Old Yeller... *sniff* Why that was part of the early elementary ed. curriculum where I grew up will never cease to amaze me because all I remember was crying and then having nightmares about dying dogs.
Agreed. This was a very weird time in the season for Show to put this one on. I think it could have come either earlier or been saved for S5. I don't know how it could be significant to what will happen in the next two episodes. I think back to Dead Man's Blood and WiaWSNB and how even though WiaWSNB was a different animal as far as episodes go, how it fit kind of perfectly into what was going on.
would have ONLY ONE reason to kill LIlith
He blames Lilith for Dean ultimately going to hell. She also tried to kill him. My biggest question is how that all manifests into John-like obsession and revenge. Part of me believes that it's not so much that Lilith had a hand in Dean going to hell, but the fact that Sam, himself, couldn't stop it. He's not only harboring a vendetta against Lilith, but trying to resolve the guilt that's been eating away at him. On the surface, I know that it's looks as if Sam has taken the whole "Dean tortured people in hell" kind of in stride (those aren't the right words, but close enough), and maybe in some ways, brushed them off and chalked it up to Dean being weak (S&V), but on some deep-level of denial there has to be a part of Sam that upon hearing that BROKE and not only cemented his guilt, but made it a heavier weight and in turn made his vednetta against Lilith that much greater. This is me just rambling in your journal (sorry for that) trying to understand WHY Sam has it so bad for Lilith. This is the only way I can make it work in my head, right or wrong.
On that same note, the demon blood thing...sometimes I think that he's doing it so as to be prepared NEXT time and that he's still thinking (at least in part) that "if I'd done this sooner, Dean never would have went to hell". IDK. I'm probably just talking out of my ass. lol
Thoughts? And also, sorry to coming to the party late. I brought confetti and beer, but seems like we should hold off on the confetti and just get drunk. lol :D
it could have come either earlier or been saved for S5
I think the depth we got of Jimmy's story could've been saved for another time ... maybe for a subplot in S5. Mentioning him in this episode would've still worked and showing snapshots of Castiel's vessel's former life would've been more intriguing than just laying it all out there in so much detail. It's all about spare details and mystery to keep the audience engaged, IMHO.
I think back to Dead Man's Blood and WiaWSNB and how even though WiaWSNB was a different animal as far as episodes go, how it fit kind of perfectly into what was going on.
You and hugemind made the same point how 1x20 and 2x20 both set the stage as far as getting the right components into play (the colt, John 1x20) or placing the characters in the right mind set (Dean 2x20). I think the plot of this episode set the chess board and had all the right components (I ramble about this to a ridiculous extent in the final comment of this thread on the off chance you're interested and have the time: http://bowtrunckle.livejournal.com/5896
My biggest question is how that all manifests into John-like obsession and revenge.
I'm totally on board with your reasonings for Sam's motivation! His guilt for a variety of deaths (Jess's, Dean's) and his need to feel in control (and therefore, "safe" perhaps) instead of at the whim of "destiny" being the foremost reasons. Then there's anger turned vengence turned revenge and then justified by the need to exact "justice" that's flowing beneath all of that. I think after last Thursday's episode, you've were channeling Gamble and Kripke. :)
This is me just rambling in your journal (sorry for that)
Please ramble away. I do enough of it at your journal. :)
I think that he's doing it so as to be prepared NEXT time and that he's still thinking (at least in part) that "if I'd done this sooner, Dean never would have went to hell".
*nods* Sam's always been the strategic planner. And pair that with his pragmatism and his guilty conscious. Even though in reality none of it was HIS fault; he never asked to be ressurrected and, I imagine, never would've wanted Dean to trade his soul for him ... and it's still too bad S3 was trunkated by the strike and we never really got to see the full extent of how Dean's deal MADE SAM FEEL. *sad face* Now that's where I could've totally gotten behind the righteous anger mark as long as in the end those two hugged it out.
Thoughts?
Thoughts? What are those? I just mostly sat here and nodded and reiterated everything you said. *is a copy cat* :D
I brought confetti and beer, but seems like we should hold off on the confetti and just get drunk. lol :D
\o/ A virtual beer or two would be nice right now, and I can't think of a better way to enjoy it but to be sharing it with you in a rain of confetti and blabbing about two fictional characters. *hugs*
2? 3? Reasons
As for Sam - his drinking of Demonic blood is more than imbibing a drug it is willingly participating in the equivalent of a Satanic Eucharist with a witch no less. I have been waiting for him to go all vampire on a demon ever since the blood theory arose. The whole idea behind the Christian Eucharist is that by participating in the rite you become closer to God. It is the spiritual food of the soul and as such is a communication with God a way for man to know the will of the God, a way for man to receive Grace and be transformed by it. More simply put the Eucharist encourages man to embrace and follow all that is good and pure and holy within his nature and to reject evil. If you put it in those terms then a Satanic Eucharist brings Sam closer to the source of Evil, it corrupts the very nature of his soul, he is receiving pure evil and his transformation will reflect that. Demon blood as it has been hinted at all season (though it would have been nice if they emphasized it more) has caused Sam to begin to embrace the worse parts of his soul.
Zaz
Re: 2? 3? Reasons
I favor this reasoning over the first two. Even though I know logistics, politics, Network demands, and fan response do shape decisions about the show and, therefore, the story, I like to think that the general story arc is dictated more by a need to tell the story rather than external factors related to the business of making a TV show.
It seems to me more and more that God is an absent force in SPN. That the "chain of angelic command" is something that the higher you go the more vague and mysterious it becomes such that angels of the lower ranks (like Castiel) aren't entirely sure who or what is commanding them. And when the question that hierarchy, they're told to have "Faith" or else be damned, which could be exploited beautifully by a high ranking angel with their own agenda. Power corrupts, especially if the masses aren't allowed to question/challenge without fear of retribution or being ostracized. Enter Anna, who I'm really enjoying and hope has an integral role in the rest of the series.
It also explores the nature of Heaven in Kripke's universse and what willing actually means to an Angel as well as the sacrifices inherent in following God's will.
Yes, Jimmy's story was obviously meant to parallel Dean's and show the implications of aligning oneself directly alongside the army of Heaven. Heavy foreshadowing for what's coming down the pipe for Dean, too. I like that Heaven is a more ruthless force, maybe one that is a little chaotic and filled with multiple sides/viewpoints and that the angels themselves are infighting. It mirrors nicely the various demon factions of Hell (those that would follow Sam, Azazel's followers, etc).
perhaps the reaaon that both Sam and Ruby were protected
I wish that clip had never been cut. It would've lent an air of mystery about Heaven's motivation much earlier, and I think that would've only helped the meta along.
I am hoping that this plot is on the part of Angels who are falling rather than God's Will. And that God is allowing it because of free will
I wouldn't be surprised by this. I'm sensing some great betrayal/reveal coming soon on the part of Heaven/angels/demons. They're not so different, angels and demons. ;)
his drinking of Demonic blood is more than imbibing a drug it is willingly participating in the equivalent of a Satanic Eucharist with a witch no less.
Not to mention the symbolic significance of an upside down (sacrificial) Christ figure in this image:
Talk about an anvil to the head. ;)
Edited at 2009-05-09 07:55 pm (UTC)